Thursday, May 11, 2006

Hispanic Home Buying Boom?

Not sure what to make of this piece in USA Today:

Analysis finds boom in Hispanics' home buying

"Home buyers with names such as Rodriguez, Garcia and Hernandez bumped Brown, Miller and Davis down the list of most common buyers' names in 2005, reflecting Hispanics' rapid advance into the middle class."

"A DataQuick Information Systems analysis of deeds and county assessment data shows a dramatic rise in the number of Hispanic and Asian home buyers since 2000."

"Smith and Johnson remain the two most popular, but Rodriguez has replaced Brown in third. Four Hispanic names are in the top 10, compared with two in 2000."

"Hispanic surnames made up 14.6% of all home buyers' names, up from 10.3% five years earlier. "The Latino population is really integrating into the middle class — and rapidly," says John Karevoll, analyst at DataQuick, a San Diego real estate information company that scoured public records in 37 states that accounted for 91% of the USA's real estate activity."

"The changes are dramatic elsewhere, too. No Hispanic names appeared in the top five in Illinois in 2000. Now, Garcia is third and Rodriguez fifth. Nevada went from zero to three and New Jersey from one to three. "It's startling how rapid the changes are," says Dowell Myers, a housing demographer at the University of Southern California. "People assume that Latinos are poor and that they're not a factor in homeownership. They're really integrating economically.""

""When we start showing up on the top list of names, that's fabulous," says Frances Martinez Myers, chairman of the National Association of Hispanic Real Estate Professionals. "It speaks to the growing economic clout of the Hispanic community. They are willing to assimilate ... to be part of the country and to pay their way. ""

New Jersey
2000 Rank
1. Smith
2. Johnson
3. Miller
4. Brown
5. Rodriguez

2005 Rank
1. Smith
2. Rodriguez
3. Brown
4. Gonzalez
5. Garcia

76 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Strange, when I go to realtytrac and see the names of people in foreclosure I see the same ethnic trend.

Guess the banks have targeted a certain segment of the population for aggressive loans.

5/11/2006 05:48:00 AM  
Blogger Metroplexual said...

Watch out for this possibility. They are invisible owners. On another blog I sa this scenario explained. APparently it is happening somewhat in SoCal. That many are illegals and they buy under assumed IDs.

They have multiple people renting the place out and it is under one of the exotic loans. The loan resets or building inspectors find the overcrowding and then they can't find the owner.

5/11/2006 05:56:00 AM  
Blogger pesche22 said...

its a sad state of affairs when
boa will give a mortgage to
spanish speaking,,, not english
with a tin number. no ssi or passport needed.

as i have been saying,, put the
for sale signs up in spanish.

5/11/2006 06:23:00 AM  
Blogger pesche22 said...

any ideas on when the first hispanic mall will open in
northern new jersey.

lets see how bout :

El Passaico ,,

5/11/2006 06:26:00 AM  
Blogger grim said...

Drop the insults. It discredits what I'm trying to do. Someone is going to come to this board, read that comment, and never come back.

While your point about BOA giving mortgages to TIN holders is most certainly valid, and very disturbing.

The comment about predatory lending is also on-track. Driving around Passaic and Paterson, there seem to be some very aggressive advertising. I'm sure that anything I'm say here is going to sound very derogatory. I've got a handful of hispanic acquaintances that have commented to me that a number of agents and mortgage lenders are using their common hispanic background as leverage to push buyers into risky mortgages and properties they really can't afford.

grim

5/11/2006 06:58:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

oh man, this is getting a little racial no? blame the banks for this.. not an ethnic group.
Im not hispanic, but, comments like "When will hispanic mall open" are really uncalled for. No one ever makes fun of the "white man" for having Abercrombie and Fitch (actually yes they do make fun) :)
All in all, I love this board, racial comments just scare the heck out of me (call me a peace and love kinda person)

5/11/2006 06:59:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

keep up the good work and sensible moderating James. Nicely done

5/11/2006 07:01:00 AM  
Blogger pesche22 said...

soory,, but the facts are the facts
the truth will set us all free.

if you want to keep your head in the sand be my guest.

watch,, i called this years ago.

and the government is on the side of the illegals.

thats just the way it is.

5/11/2006 07:03:00 AM  
Anonymous Michelle said...

Question...

Are all loan docs available in Spanish, or would Spanish-speaking buyers have to rely on their broker/loan folks/agent telling them what they're about?

5/11/2006 07:04:00 AM  
Blogger minutesfromNYC said...

Guess the banks have targeted a certain segment of the population for aggressive loans.

Definately!

5/11/2006 07:20:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm thinking the same thing as anonymous at 6:48am.

I have an aunt that works in the mortgage industry (not sure what she does...something administrative I think...she doesn't have any say in who gets a loan or anything).

Anyhow, last summer I was discussing the unaffordability factor with my above mentioned aunt when my mother started in about how house prices won't drop so I should just buy (her friend's house) now. So I launched into my usual argument with all of the logical reasons why prices could/should come down. I mentioned how people are buying houses they can't afford and how those houses will probably be in foreclosure in a few years. My mother tried to brush it off as usual, but my aunt jumped right on that...she mentioned hispanics specifically and how her company was handing out loans like candy to the hispanic community. She couldn't believe that families making a combined income of $40,000/yr were getting the amounts of money that they were getting - of course she knew about the fudging that was going on but her bosses had a strict policy that she was to keep her mouth shut and do her job without questions...I feel obligated to note that she doesn't work for that company any more.

- Cultural Infidel

5/11/2006 07:27:00 AM  
Blogger grim said...

There is a very fine line with helping minorities achieve homeownership and predatory lending.

It is predatory lending under the guise of "helping increase homeownership" that I'm most afraid of. Frankly, it scares the hell out of me.

It's impossible to draw any line without becoming entangled in a policital mess. Nobody is going to want to touch the issue, thus it will continue.

If someone can't afford a home, they can't afford a home. Put race, gender, background, and surname aside.

But putting someone into a property they can't afford using a risky loan and saying it is "helping minorities achieve the American dream"? It just isn't right.

But how do you speak out against it without it sounding racially motivated or insulting?

grim

5/11/2006 07:28:00 AM  
Anonymous UnRealtor said...

Over at Another F'd Borrower:

http://www.housingbubblecasualty.com

Many people there observed a mass influx of illegal aliens and their relatives buying up large, nice homes and having 20+ people living there, all splitting the mortgage payment.

Needless to say, it wrecks the town, with cars parked all over the place, garbage everywhere, noise, people coming and going at all hours, etc.


"But how do you speak out against it without it sounding racially motivated or insulting?"

I've stopped worrying about being PC soon after 9-11, when the media and many others started to engage in Orwellian speak to avoid facing reality.

Speak reality, and let other, intellectually dishonest people worry about trying to spin reality into something "less offensive."

5/11/2006 07:39:00 AM  
Blogger grim said...

I think one of the great things about New Jersey is it's tight knit cultural communities. You can't drive through any part of Northern NJ without hitting one. I don't understand why anyone would think that something is wrong with this. It's a natural part of immigration and assimilation. People are going to tend to gravitate towards others that came from a similar background or speak a similar language.

I'm all for *legal* immigration. This country exists because of immigration. The Statue of Liberty actually means something to me.

I'm a first generation (born) American. The reason I'm here is because my parents were allowed to immigrate to this country.

grim

5/11/2006 07:42:00 AM  
Blogger pesche22 said...

grim the numbers dont lie

15% of the pop. is now hispanic

take a look at the arbitron
ratings,,, in radio, the top
rated stations in LA, NY, Phe,
and many other top US cities
are hispanic.

add on top of that the hip hop
and their you have it.

The US is turning into a third
world country,,,

You want me to continue , lets talk
about the BK's in the health care industry.

The country is being hijacked.

5/11/2006 08:09:00 AM  
Blogger pesche22 said...

by the way , gold is up this morning on its way to $800 their is a reason for that.

the dollar is becoming more and more worthless.

its no wonder that people want to come here and buy up our assets.

5/11/2006 08:11:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Doing an analysis on last names is ridiculous and really does not prove anything unless you are aggregating the data. So what if Lopez or Amigo is the top last name in a state for real estate sales??? If you could tell me that Hispanics bought over 10% of homes last year, then that would be meaningful and I would be impressed.

5/11/2006 08:22:00 AM  
Blogger Richard said...

grim i thought this blog invited any and all comments? while i don't agree with racial slurs, you've supported the right for people to express their opinions. you should know that touching on a sensitive topic like the explosive hispanic growth in this area of the country has touched off some nerves.

with that said, the article might be more appropriate in saying instead of their rapid ascent into the middle class, it might be more like the debtor class. i'd be interested to see income/wealth statistics for this ethnic group and see if this is fueled by loose lending practices to previously unqualified buyers or are they truly 'coming into their own'.

5/11/2006 08:26:00 AM  
Blogger grim said...

I agree with the comments on analysis, it's almost entirely meaningless sensationalism. Did you really expect much more from USA Today?

But I did think it made an interesting jumping-off point for discussions, even if they were going to be heated.

I think predatory lending to minorities is an issue that deserves to be discussed.

5/11/2006 08:34:00 AM  
Blogger grim said...

Richard,

The middle class is the debtor class, whether it be made up of white, black, asian or hispanic.

Here is the data from 1999, trying to find something more recent for comparison..

http://www.wnjpin.net/OneStopCareerCenter/LaborMarketInformation/lmi10/inc/mcd_inc.xls

grim

5/11/2006 08:41:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

- The growth in loan volume at any cost (without regard to sound underwriting) is responsible for this wave of lending. I do not believe "hispanic" groups ever initiated a request for this kind of loans or lobbied for this to start. (ITIN loans have been in place for decades to enable rich Europeans, Japanese, South Americans and others to purchase property in the US). Such ITIN loans, subprime loans, hard money loans, stated income loans are available to anybody (with property that can be collateralized).

- I fail to see the instant connections established by some posters here. For instance - between 9/11 and hispanic homebuying. OR between hip hop music and the "third world" (Hip hop music, at least in its origins, is as american as apple pie).

- Banks (in large measure) do not "target" specific groups, they create products that they hope will help them grow. When certain communities take advantage of these products, other communities feel that the former is getting a sweet deal. When things go sour (example - foreclosures etc), the communities that initially benefited from them claim that they were "unfairly targeted". (I must hasten to add here, there are unethical banks/financial institutions that do target groups of people, but they are far fewer than the press would have you believe).

CNS

5/11/2006 08:45:00 AM  
Blogger grim said...

Some more data:

http://www.census.gov/prod/2005pubs/p60-229.pdf

5/11/2006 08:45:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I grew up in Jersey City. As more of the Hispanic population moved in, crime went up, the houses were not kept up as well, stereo speakers went in the windows blaring Salsa and Merengue(sp?), fine shops on Central Avenue left, and the streets got dirty. I'm just telling you what I witnessed, you draw your own conclusions.

5/11/2006 08:48:00 AM  
Blogger pesche22 said...

while we worry about the wrong things chinese are now buying up
gold reserves.,, this puts further
pressue on the dollar which is in
a downward spiral.

its very sad to see whats going on.

and in the meantime,, The US is overrun... no other country in the world allows this,, except the French.

but on the other hand we are upgrading the malls so we can continue to shop.

we have rebates continuing on SUV's
and summer rentals are ok.

other than that,, how the yankess
doing.

5/11/2006 08:48:00 AM  
Blogger grim said...

CALABASAS, CA /PRNewswire/ -- Countrywide Home Loans, Inc., a national leader in residential finance, is ranked as the number one lender to minorities according to National Mortgage News affiliate Mortgagestats.com. Mortgagestats.com used Home Mortgage Disclosure Act (HMDA) data for 2000 to determine rankings for mortgage lenders. Countrywide led in overall minority lending with a total of $10 billion and also ranked number one in lending to Hispanics and African Americans for the same time period.

"Countrywide has been committed to the availability of affordable homeownership to all Americans since our inception more than 30 years ago," said Angelo Mozilo, chairman of Countrywide Home Loans. "We continue each year to devote our tremendous resources towards reaching out to thousands of prospective home buyers to help them understand that the dream of homeownership is within their grasp. This mission is a cornerstone of Countrywide and something I'm incredibly proud of.

"This year's data shows the results of our work. We retained our position as the number one lender of loans to African Americans and Hispanics nationwide." Overall, the company's market share among all minorities (African American, Asian, Hispanic, Native American/Alaskan) increased to 5.26 percent, totaling more than 86,000 loans in 2000.

"In addition to our focus on assisting historically underserved home buyers, we have dedicated resources to expanding and encouraging homeownership in economically depressed areas, helping to revitalize these communities with the pride of homeownership," said Mozilo.

Countrywide has consistently been a leader in opening access to mortgage credit for all sectors of American society. In 1992, Countrywide created its House America(R) program, supporting its fair lending commitment through specialized loan programs, community outreach and a nationwide home buyer counseling center. In March 2000, Countrywide became the first mortgage lender in the nation to renew with the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) its Declaration of Fair Lending Principles and Practices. In doing so, the company affirmed its commitment to fair lending and set forth a series of company-wide practices aimed at increasing loans to low- to moderate-income and minority borrowers.

Mozilo credits Countrywide's record to its aggressive "We House America" campaign to help minority and lower income borrowers seek homeownership. Last year, the company reaffirmed its commitment to affordable lending with a new pledge, the One Hundred Billion Dollar Challenge, which aims to provide $100 billion in loans to lower income and minority home buyers and in lower income communities by 2005.

5/11/2006 08:59:00 AM  
Blogger grim said...

http://www.civilrights.org/issues/housing/details.cfm?id=42577

Coalition Calls for Predatory Lending Legislation to Protect Minority Homebuyers

Acknowledging that homeownership is the predominant avenue for accumulating wealth, the letter states that predatory lending "threatens decades of work by the civil rights community to increase minority homeownership."

Many minorities, immigrants, women, and elderly tend to have less experience with the mortgage market and are therefore more vulnerable to exploitation. For this reason, such legislation would improve protections for families looking to buy homes, ensure access to courts for victims, and guarantee access to fairly-priced credit.

Predatory lending practices usually take the form of refinanced loans with excessive fees, but can also include penalties for paying off loans early; kickbacks to brokers; loan flipping; steering borrowers into unnecessary subprime loans; and targeting vulnerable borrowers, particularly African Americans.

Most of these predatory lenders target people with bad or limited credit. Minorities, immigrants, women, elderly, and individuals who live in poverty are disproportionately represented in this population.

In the last 10 years, the subprime market has grown 1000 percent, according to the Center for Responsible Lending (CRL). CRL estimates that subprime lending increased 50 percent between 2002 and 2003 alone.

Some housing experts point out that subprime lending is essential to providing homeownership opportunities to those least likely to have them. But there is too often a downside. Wade Henderson, executive director of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights, said, "While increased access to credit for families with impaired credit histories is to be applauded, the prevalence of subprime loans with abusive characteristics has been devastating to minority and disadvantaged communities."

5/11/2006 09:03:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Trust me, Grim - I am not blowing smoke here.

CNS

5/11/2006 09:04:00 AM  
Blogger pesche22 said...

just remember the trend is your friend. listen to hip hop, its really good. take spanish lessons,
after all your in america.

and cater to the hispanics,,

and by the way buy some gold and
silver for your portfolio

5/11/2006 09:09:00 AM  
Blogger grim said...

CNS,

I agree, but only up to a point. I think that many of these loans are 'enablers'.

While banks and lenders certainly aren't dumb enough to target directly (although Ameriquest just settled a $25m predatory lending suit), the reason for these mortgages is questionable. They sure do make predatory lending very easy...

5/11/2006 09:13:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My last word on this -

- I am sure you can come up with much to debate what I have said. Some of the articles that you cite are by groups who have cited "predatory lending" as an issue for decades. Some of these groups are also active in organizing the demonstrations for granting amnesty. I mention this ONLY to point out that some of them have a vested agenda.

- Predatory lending is an issue no doubt - but is largely the domain of unethical mortgage brokers or private money lenders (making subprime or hard money loans).

CNS

5/11/2006 09:14:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ameriquest is a POS company. Not a bank.

CNS

5/11/2006 09:16:00 AM  
Blogger REINVESTOR101 said...

An explosive issue here. I must wade in.


I know I've been on the right wing here in my commentary, but I'd like to play devil's advocate with the issue of immigration so as to have some balance here.

First, I think we can all agree that uneven economic opportuntiy is the main driver of immigration in addition to the fact our nation has grown accustomed to having things cheaply without pain. With all the complaining about home prices here, I dare say that most here would not be willing to pay more for fruit if the labor cost was a lot higher to pick it. The fact is that our economy is now very reliant on immigrant labor. Accomodating the fruit companies was one of the main reasons the adminstration was pushing the whole thing with the guest worker program.

When Europeans first came over, they too came due to uneven economic opportunity and we know all about the extirpation of the native americans in the aftermath of European immigration. As we pursued manifest destiny, many of these people were displaced, killed and relocated.

Ethincally, many of the hispanics are really spanish speaking native americans.

Have you ever considered the ironic twist that all this immigration really represents the return of the native american to a land that was orginally his?

5/11/2006 09:34:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I work for an insurance company and duplicate social security numbers used by more than one name are very common. It automatically raises a red flag as far as compensation is concerned. It is unthinkable that lenders do not verify credentials further. Those mortgage companies have really lead to this mess.

5/11/2006 09:49:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This blog purports to discuss issues as it relates to the RE bubble in NNJ. While much of the discussion is fascinating, we need to maintain perspective. Regarding the hispanic home buying boom, the pertinent questions appear to be -

- Are the hispanics buying homes in numbers that are significant enough to affect statistics in nnj ?

- Given the greater propensity of these loans being "loosely documented", will that worsen the foreclosures in the future ? Or will that the fact that the rate of employment among hispanics is higher than other groups make up for this (and actually help by keeping a lid on foreclosures) ?

Grim, Unrealtor, Metro, CF, Reinvestor, SG, pesche22 & other regulars - What would be the other pertinent points of discussion ?

CNS

5/11/2006 09:53:00 AM  
Blogger pesche22 said...

take a ride into a so called
hispanic hood,,,

how many to a room,,

all legals?

come on : the trend is your friend

the banks just going with the trend

you'll see : signs in Hispanic

and by the way if you go into
some of the grocey stores(a&p,shoprite,etc) you see larger and larger hispanic sections.

5/11/2006 09:57:00 AM  
Blogger REINVESTOR101 said...

- Given the greater propensity of these loans being "loosely documented", will that worsen the foreclosures in the future ? Or will that the fact that the rate of employment among hispanics is higher than other groups make up for this (and actually help by keeping a lid on foreclosures) ?

To be sure, hispanics' rate of foreclosure will be higher as they've probably been put into the riskier loan products. In addition, since many of them are marginally employed, they might not have the savings or other resources to weather a bout of unemployment. There no question that there has been predatory lending, but I have to say that one can only be a victim if he allows himself to be victimized. The lack of financial literacy among most americans leaves them in the position of victims. Hispanics aren't exempt from this.

5/11/2006 10:11:00 AM  
Anonymous UnRealtor said...

"I fail to see the instant connections established by some posters here. For instance - between 9/11 and hispanic homebuying."


Sorry, there was no connection made "between 9/11 and hispanic homebuying."

There was a connection made between the Orwellian speak after 9-11, and the Orwellian speak today regarding illegal aliens.

Do try to follow along.

5/11/2006 10:14:00 AM  
Anonymous UnRealtor said...

"Banks (in large measure) do not 'target' specific groups"


I think when you see billboards and advertising posters up in Jersey City, or Newark, written exclusively in Spanish, and advertising 1% loans, they are indeed targeting a "specific group." Which is smart business, but let's not deny what's happening.

5/11/2006 10:17:00 AM  
Blogger REINVESTOR101 said...

take a ride into a so called
hispanic hood,,,

how many to a room,,

all legals?

come on : the trend is your friend

the banks just going with the trend

you'll see : signs in Hispanic

and by the way if you go into
some of the grocey stores(a&p,shoprite,etc) you see larger and larger hispanic sections.


I don't think we can be suprised at signs in spanish given the influx of spanish speaking people. This is really a nonissue.

Like I suggested, spanish speaking native americans are coming home to a land that was theirs originally.

5/11/2006 10:18:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Unrealtor,

I don't understand why you are snapping at me ? IMO - it is not so much as me not following along - but you being overly dramatic. There was no "Orwellian double-speak" in any of the blog discussions here. No one muzzled you as far as I can remember. There was little reason, IMO, for introducing topics so far from the discussion of a housing bubble in NNJ.

FWIW - I do believe that you are a very fair minded person.

CNS

5/11/2006 10:24:00 AM  
Anonymous UnRealtor said...

ReInvestor wrote:

"Have you ever considered the ironic twist that all this immigration really represents the return of the native american to a land that was orginally his?"


It's funny how you blast others here about being "un-American" and yet here you have recited the anti-American clap-trap regurgitated by Stalinist front groups (e.g., "International ANSWER"), etc, who back these anti-American groups to undermine the United States:

http://www.mexica-movement.org/granmarcha.htm

(Triple-click to select link, scroll down for many photos.)

I don't think you're "right wing," but instead, completely uninformed.

5/11/2006 10:27:00 AM  
Anonymous UnRealtor said...

"What would be the other pertinent points of discussion?"


Here's one: Why are our existing laws not being enforced? Using a bogus Social Security #, or the SS# of someone else, is a Federal crime (identity theft). Let's enforce the laws.

5/11/2006 10:30:00 AM  
Blogger Metroplexual said...

"Banks (in large measure) do not 'target' specific groups"


Actually there is to an extent because of past practices in lending where there was redlining. Especially in urban mixed race neighborhoods.

My sister worked over at Fannie Mae Foundation, undoing the barriers to homeownership is their slogan as well as their mission. She told me that regulators over the last ten years have nudged the banks to lighten up on the lending requirements.

5/11/2006 10:34:00 AM  
Anonymous UnRealtor said...

CNS wrote:

"I don't understand why you are snapping at me?"

My apologies, I just get annoyed at the implication that if someone even mentions 9-11 as a contributing factor to a change in their perspective, that somehow means "9-11 is linked to X."



"IMO - it is not so much as me not following along - but you being overly dramatic."

I was stating a mundane personal observation in response to a question from Grim, how is that "overly dramatic"?



"There was no "Orwellian double-speak" in any of the blog discussions here."

Please re-read my post from 8:39, which you continually misrepresent. Grim asked: "But how do you speak out against it without it sounding racially motivated or insulting?"

To which I replied: don't worry about being PC, speak the truth, and let the dishonest folks worry about spinning reality into something "less offensive."



"No one muzzled you as far as I can remember."

I never implied anyone did; where are you getting all this stuff?



"There was little reason, IMO, for introducing topics so far from the discussion of a housing bubble in NNJ."

My post addressed the topic, and Grim's question, I think you may need some morning coffee?



"FWIW - I do believe that you are a very fair minded person."

Thanks, appreciate that, and you are as well (normally), but today you're misrepresenting what I've written.

5/11/2006 10:45:00 AM  
Blogger minutesfromNYC said...

"The Internet is Serious Business"

5/11/2006 10:50:00 AM  
Blogger pesche22 said...

check with law enforcement.

gangs,, do you think they are whites. nope,, hispanics and blacks. killing the bugets of the locals , to try to enforce the laws.

spanish speaking ,, go into the
hoods,, see the way it looks.

their way is not are way,but they can get financed.

5/11/2006 10:54:00 AM  
Blogger grim said...

I always regret posting pieces that I know are politically or emotionally charged.

I hate to think that I'm dividing readership or causing readers to leave because of these things.

As much as I love a good heated discussion or debate, lately they seem to be depreciating very quickly.

I really love the arguments we've been having lately.

So keep your head up and keep your punches clean.

5/11/2006 11:10:00 AM  
Blogger Grim Ghost said...

Is there really any evidence that a significant number of people illegally in the country are buying houses based on loans ? For Seig Heilers like pesche22 it makes no difference whether someone is illegal or legal, no doubt, but for most rational beings it does.

When I applied for a loan, I had to provide a huge amount of documentation (bank statements, brokerage accounts, drivers license etc.). There were also some documentation requirements under the Patriot Act. Credit reports on my SS were run by the bank, employment verification etc. Now no-doc loans probably reduce the documetnation requirements drastically, at the expense of higher interest rates, but even they require a fair amount of documentation. Doubtless a few illegals slip through the net, but they are probably a small portion of the problem.

The real problem is excessively loose standards for lending.

5/11/2006 11:22:00 AM  
Blogger Grim Ghost said...

grim -- The definition I had heard was that a first generation American is a naturalized American. Someone born here whose parents immigrated and naturalized are 2nd generationers.

The impact of immigration on housing prices, especially in places like Florida, New York and New Jersey, cannot be denied. Without resorting to racial slurs, its obvious that immigration has helped to prop up prices in NJ. I don't think its one of the 3 main factors -- those are low interest rates, speculation, and loose lending standards, but it is definitely an important factor. In some towns, immigrants have helped to revitalize old neighorboods, but those actions have also lead to increase in prices.



For the record, I am a naturalized American citizen.

5/11/2006 11:30:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

gangs,, do you think they are whites. nope,, hispanics and blacks. killing the bugets of the locals , to try to enforce the laws.

spanish speaking ,, go into the
hoods,, see the way it looks.

their way is not are way,but they can get financed.


Tell me, what language do you speak? This sure doesn't look like English to me...

5/11/2006 11:32:00 AM  
Blogger pesche22 said...

look sign your name if you can.

im very busy making the moooney
flipping houses to hispanics.

i was just now at SSI, getting on the dole.

buy gold and silver.

sell the dollar.

5/11/2006 11:51:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

- Grim - I don't see any problems with this discussion thread. There is a sufficiently broad group of regulars here who can provide the "checks and balances" needed. Everyone who has already commented - me, unrealtor, reinvestor, pesche22 - should feel free to continue discussing.

- grim_ghost - Yes, the conforming mortgage loan process is document intensive. ITIN loans fall into the spectrum of nonconforming loans (if at that. Some would argue that they are illegal). They are largely made by only a few banks (Banco Popular for instance). I believe they keep these loans in their portfolio.

- The secondary marketing aspects make a difference here. I do not believe that Fannie/Freddie are involved in this (but I could be wrong). So the banks doing ITIN loans (as a bread-and-butter product in their portfolio) are the ones who put these loans in their portfolio (and not sell these on the secondary market).

- I believe the other bigger banks trying this right now (e.g Wells etc) are largely doing this as a pilot program.

- I would think that these loans will remain a niche product, unless Fannie/Freddie begin to okay them.

CNS

5/11/2006 11:54:00 AM  
Blogger jhawk92 said...

As someone who's helped determine how to advertise loans to minorities, I'll jump in here.

Hispanics are targeted because they are a growth segment. Here's a possible scenario: a market research person receives a report stating that Hispanics are the fastest growing segment of homebuyers. The bank wants to grow its mortgage business. Thus, let's target a fast growing segment and be the "leader" in that segment.

Marketing funds get shifted, an hispanic ad agency is hired, you start seeing ads done in spanish, an hispanic spokesperson is hired, etc.

It's not just loans, beer, media, cars, food, etc. are all focusing on the Hispanic market because they want to tell their shareholders that they are leaders in this growth segment...

Wait until the next growth segment comes along, then they will be the focus...

5/11/2006 12:21:00 PM  
Blogger Grim Ghost said...

CNS -- different topic.

Since you seen knowledgeable about this, could you explain why on Earth people would borrow from Ditech.com ? They seem to have some of the highest rates I've seen -- on 15 years, 62-75 basis points above more competitive lenders. Are their rates just worse in NJ or is it just their dumb ads that draw people to it ?

5/11/2006 12:22:00 PM  
Blogger RentinginNJ said...

Another possibility to consider is that Hispanic immigration has been occurring for quite some time now. While most of the recent entrants (legal or illegal) are likely to be poor, many have been here for a while have begun to establish themselves. It’s hard to tell from the economic data, because it’s likely that recent immigrants drive the income statistics down. Other evidence, however, tends to support this. For example, Hispanics, who were once considered a Democratic stronghold, are now no longer an “automatic” for the Democrats.

My wife is Hispanic. Her parents emigrated here (legally) about 25 years ago from South America. Like most immigrants in the area, they started off poor in living in an overcrowded apartment in Paterson. They now own 2 homes (before bubble), one of which they rents. My wife’s cousins, who like my wife came here as small children, now consist of a pharmacist, a recent MBA graduate and one will be attending Princeton this fall.

I would say, however, that Hispanics are frequently the target of predatory lending practices. While the large banks may not target Hispanics specifically, many smaller mortgage brokers do. They often capitalize on their heritage and tight-knit community to build trust. Recent immigrants especially are often distrustful of outsides, but perhaps not always skeptical enough of those inside their communities. Again, my first hand observation.

5/11/2006 12:23:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ditech (or for that matter, any lender that is big on TV advertising) have large marketing costs. As a rule of thumb, these companies never have the lowest cost loans (though some might provide excellent service).

People recall their names and call them instinctively when they think of a loan. Once they make contact with a loan officer, they are usually sold hard & pressured into closing swiftly.

Every product that ditech offers is available from other mortgage brokers/lenders (as ditech's parent company, GMAC, also has a wholesale division - GMAC-RFC).

I have heard (reliable sources, but never heard it first hand) that ditech's LO's routinely bait-and-switch (You are promised one thing on the phone, but it turns into something higher at closing). Also, sophisticated consumers like the readers here may be able to analyze & unbundle costs like increased interest rates for lower closing fees etc. Most customers are thrilled at the "no out of pocket fees" offered and don't analyse the extra 75 basis points too closely.

CNS

5/11/2006 12:39:00 PM  
Blogger Grim Ghost said...

CNS -- thanks. I figured it was just marketing. IMHO, ditech doesn't even need bait and switch -- their rates are so high. And even their fees, while not that high, aren't the lowest.

For anyone looking to buy in the next year or so, among the mid-sized banks, I would recommend either Penn Federal or Hudson City Savings for loans.

5/11/2006 12:51:00 PM  
Anonymous UnRealtor said...

"As much as I love a good heated discussion or debate, lately they seem to be depreciating very quickly."


Well, this is a real estate bubble blog, we're knee-deep in rapid depreciation!

:)

5/11/2006 01:23:00 PM  
Blogger delford said...

reinvestor: Not to add to the controversey, but spanish speaking native americans returning to their nativ eland, you need a history lesson.

First off the overwhekming majortiy of mexicans are a mixture of indian and spanish, comonly known as metizo. The mexican elite , are primarliy of pure spanish ancestrey.

As far as who stolw what from whom, we dis not steal the southwest from mexico, it was simply the remnants of the spainsh empire, once mexico achieved independence.

The majority of the southwest was unoccupied excpet for native american indian tribes, who of course were the ones who got screwed. Does the southwest have a spanish cultural heritage with all the place names etc.yes it does, but spanish not mexican.

Had the southwest remained a so called part of mexico, all it owul have meant is that mexico would have been a larger third worl country failure then it already is.

5/11/2006 01:27:00 PM  
Blogger REINVESTOR101 said...

I don't think you're "right wing," but instead, completely uninformed.

And I think you're house poor and completely resentful as a result.


It's funny how you blast others here about being "un-American" and yet here you have recited the anti-American clap-trap regurgitated by Stalinist front groups (e.g., "International ANSWER"), etc, who back these anti-American groups to undermine the United States:

Stop being wild eyed and paranoid about this group. Stalin has been dead for quite sometime and International Answer is a fringe group with little following; hardly the sort of threat you should be losing sleep over.

You do more undermining the US with your constant calls for boycotting the NJ real estate markets than International Answer has done.

The brutal truth is this: A goodly number of the hispanic immigrants are decedents of the Native Americans that were displaced by European immigration. They're now coming home. That's an irony that's not considered in these discussions. Instead, people prefer to bash the hispanics. I disagree with that.

BTW Grim, this string is just fine. There's too much political correctness in this country that limits discussion about things that really need to be aired. I'd just as soon get this stuff right out there on the table so we know where everyone is at.

5/11/2006 01:29:00 PM  
Anonymous UnRealtor said...

ReInvestor, please stick to losing money in real estate, as history is not your strong suit.

See Delford's post above, and some history books.

And while Stalin is dead, his followers are not:


The Washington Post
January 22, 2003; Page A15

Marching With Stalinists

By Michael Kelly

International ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism) is a front group for the communist Workers World Party. The Workers World Party is, literally, a Stalinist organization. It rose out of a split within the old Socialist Workers Party over the Soviet Union's 1956 invasion of Hungary -- the breakaway Workers World Party was all for the invasion. International ANSWER today unquestioningly supports any despotic regime that lays any claim to socialism, or simply to anti-Americanism. It supported the butchers of Beijing after the slaughter of Tiananmen Square. It supports Saddam Hussein and his Baathist torture-state. It supports the last official Stalinist state, North Korea, in the mass starvation of its citizens. It supported Slobodan Milosevic after the massacre at Srebrenica. It supports the mullahs of Iran, and the narco-gangsters of Colombia and the bus-bombers of Hamas.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25043-2003Jan21.html



And this group backs (financially and otherwise) these recent rallys by foreign nationals who are demanding US citizenship. They will back any group who seeks to undermine the United States.

Also, the land of which you speak was either sold to the US, or brought into US hands by treaties.

Please open up a history book.

5/11/2006 02:15:00 PM  
Blogger REINVESTOR101 said...

ReInvestor, please stick to losing money in real estate, as history is not your strong suit.

As much as you guys, the media and the federal reserve are trying to destroy the real estate markets, rest assured that I remain unscathed.

See Delford's post above, and some history books.

Delford has some inaccuracies in his post. I'll be back on this board later to address those.

And while Stalin is dead, his followers are not:....And this group backs (financially and otherwise) these recent rallys by foreign nationals who are demanding US citizenship. They will back any group who seeks to undermine the United States.

You know unrealtor, when your bud Rob Ryley was speaking in support of Soros the other day, you were remarkably silent. George Soros is a greater threat to this country than these people who have no money and have little way of projecting their influence. You're being rather shrill here.

Also, the land of which you speak was either sold to the US, or brought into US hands by treaties. Please open up a history book.

Please. Opening a history book is an admonishment for you and Delford. The native americans had no concept of land ownership per se as they perceived land as belonging to everyone. Concepts of land ownership and etc were largely a European concept foisted upon a group of people who really didn't realize what was happening to them. (i.e. 26 beads for Manhattan and etc.). Similarly treaties were forced on these people after routing them in wars; hardly the sorts of arm's length transactions that occur between buyers and sellers today. Take off the rose colored glasses and stop viewing history through the lens of our comtemporary dealings.

5/11/2006 02:45:00 PM  
Anonymous UnRealtor said...

"George Soros is a greater threat to this country than these people who have no money and have little way of projecting their influence."


Hello!?, Soros helps fund "International ANSWER" and similar groups.

As for "no influence" they have money, and are the ones organizing most of these mass rallies. They held huge rallies in Washington days after 9-11 to oppose the US response in Afghanistan. They organized and assisted the recent rallies by foreign nationals demanding US citizenship.

http://www.mexica-movement.org/granmarcha.htm

Please get real. All borders for all "countries" are contrived. The world didn't come pre-equipped with lines and labels like a classroom globe, they were created by war, purchase, or through treaties.

The US is a sovereign nation, and anyone who wants to challenge its borders will suffer badly.

We're way off course from real estate now, but seeing your posts regurgitate the talking points of these nutty anti-American groups was too ironic to let go.

5/11/2006 04:50:00 PM  
Blogger lisoosh said...

I'm willing to bet that there isn't a single poster here who is a pure bred Native American. Everyone here is the descendant of immigrants and every immigrant group has been vilified by those previous to them. Just read a history book to find out what was said about the Italians, the Irish, the Germans, the Eastern Europeans and so on as they arrived. And don't forget that the really early guys - such as those on the Mayflower - were hardly the cream of English society, they were the outcasts.

As to the targeting of Hispanics, of course, as has been pointed out they are a group looking for mortgages, why wouldn't the mortgage companies work for their business. I'm not sure how vulnerable they are to foreclosure actually as if they really are living in close quarters and sharing mortgages that would make them less vulnerable.

5/11/2006 04:59:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm willing to bet that there isn't a single poster here who is a pure bred Native American.

I'm so tired of this non-sequitur. Who can name one nation anywhere that has people who can't trace their ancestory to some other place if you go back far enough?

I was born here. So were my parents. I'm native american as far as I'm concerned.

5/11/2006 05:59:00 PM  
Anonymous UnRealtor said...

ReInvestor, here's an "ANSWER" poster held up by a muslim kid at a rally in support of the nutcase regime in Iran:

Long link:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060511/481/jak10805111331

Short link:
http://tinyurl.com/gv5y5

5/11/2006 08:50:00 PM  
Anonymous UnRealtor said...

The only true Americans are Clovis-Americans.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/stoneage/

But can Clovis-Americans get a suicide loan to buy over-priced real estate?

5/11/2006 08:53:00 PM  
Blogger REINVESTOR101 said...

The majority of the southwest was unoccupied excpet for native american indian tribes, who of course were the ones who got screwed. Does the southwest have a spanish cultural heritage with all the place names etc.yes it does, but spanish not mexican.

As I indicated, I'd be back here to address Delford's inaccuracies in his post.

Here's a link to Wikipedia that describes the Mexican-American War:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican-American_War

Basically, the US provoked Mexico into a war with the annexation of Texas so it would capture Mexico's northern territories. Mexico, being in a weakened state after it's own war for independence from Spain could not really take on the US and wound up losing Texas, New Mexico and California. Manifest Destiny was the policy that triggered much of this provocation.

The Native Americans, of course, were the occupants of these area and we know that they were jerked. I don't know where you're geeting the idea that these areas were unoccupied "except" for the native americans. Does their occupancy not count? Did they buy into the acquisition of the territories by the US? These people suffered horrors both under the Spanish and under us. The fact that they're metizos, or mixed, is beside the point. That mixture came from colonialism and does not negate the fact that ethincally these people are Native Americans.

5/12/2006 10:05:00 AM  
Blogger delford said...

reinvestor: You are missing my point, and have a somewhat limited knowledgee of American history.

The areas that you refer to as northern territories of Mexico, wer really just remnants of the old Spanish empire, there was no annexation of uniquely Mexican areas by the U.S. The makjority of what is now the southwest U.S.at that time was largely unoccupied, there wer native Americans living there, and yes they suffered under both the Spanish and the American, but they are not the meztizos that you speak of ,which was the mixture of native american and spanish to form what became mexico.

Did we provoke mexico into war, absolutely, but again we did not conquer and occupy areas with a mxican population, and we could have if we desired taken all of mexico, but wr did not. Oh and lets not forget that the mexican governement sold us additional territory in the 1850's the Gadsen purchase if you remember from history.

My only point with all of this, is the belief that some mexicans and uninfomed americans have that we stole big chunks of mexico, and as such we should let millions of them come to this country a s pay back for that injustice. The only people to have suffered int what is today the southwest USA, were theoriginal native americans that lived in those lands, not the mexicans.

5/12/2006 03:58:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gringo: "So why is Mexico so poor?"

Mexican: "It is because your coontry stole half our land. And not only that Senor, you stole the half with all the paved roads."

5/12/2006 05:18:00 PM  
Blogger REINVESTOR101 said...

My only point with all of this, is the belief that some mexicans and uninfomed americans have that we stole big chunks of mexico, and as such we should let millions of them come to this country a s pay back for that injustice. The only people to have suffered int what is today the southwest USA, were theoriginal native americans that lived in those lands, not the mexicans.

Please note that I am not necessarily justifying the immigration of Mexican's into the US nor am I arguing that they should be allowed in on the basis that something was stolen from them. I'm just pointing out the irony of having what is essentially an native american group come home.

The group I consider in this irony is just a tab bit larger than the southwestern native americans you're referring to in the former Mexican territories. From the perspective of the native americans, they likely made no distinction between whether it was Europeans of Spanish persuasion or British persuasion that dispossessed them of their land. Similarly, I make no distinction between the mexicans, who are essentially of native american stock, or those that were here in the US. The irony, regardless of where the immigrants are coming from, is the fact that they're native americans who are invading a land their ancestors once occupied. I maintain that metizos are really nothing but spanish speaking Indians who are indistinguishable from their northern cousins save from some mixture with the Spanish.

5/12/2006 11:23:00 PM  
Blogger delford said...

reinvestor: Not to belabor this whole discussion, but how can they be coming home to to a land that wa essentially unoccupied in the first place, expcept for a small smattering of indian tribes, the land was unoccupied.

5/14/2006 10:15:00 AM  
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