Thursday, April 06, 2006

Citizens offer Corzine suggestions..

From the Star Ledger:

Governor's got mail, and it's oh so fiscally frank

"Go to hell. Quickly."

"Sweet Jesus! I can't believe I voted for you," said one Rutgers University student from New Brunswick, obviously reacting to Corzine's call for a $169 million reduction in aid for colleges and universities, the biggest cut in his budget proposal.

One West Paterson resident was angered about the tax increases. "I'm sorry for being a Democrat," he wrote.

Added a Mount Laurel taxpayer: "I voted for you. Are you crazy? Do you remember Jim Florio?"

One jobless former telecommunications worker from Lake Hiawatha said boosting the sales tax from 6 percent to 7 percent "will kill us and do away with jobs." Another Cinnaminson taxpayer said he is moving out of the state because "I can no longer afford to live here. Thanks to Florio and Corzine."

But not all of the electronic mail was downbeat.

A Basking Ridge resident found it "refreshing for a governor to run the state like a business. P.S. I'm a Republican." Corzine is former chief executive officer of Goldman Sachs, the worldwide securities and investment banking company.

This came from a registered Republican from North Arlington: "I applaud your efforts in your budget address."

Then there were cases in which the meaning was clear even if the message was not: "I think you are the supits goveror there is," said one misspelled missive from Haddonfield.

58 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Theres only so long you can go without paying for things. Taxes have to increase. Just because the previous governor didn't want to is no reason to blame Corizine.

4/06/2006 08:02:00 AM  
Blogger Bubble-X said...

Wrong! What kind of attitude is that? The politicians must love you!

Taxes don’t have to increase if we stop wasting all the money we are wasting. Did you see the pork barrel report that came out yesterday? Don't even get me started on the costs of immigration. I can go in 100 directions on the issue of spending! You choose.

And... Before you start with the Republicans bad, blah, blah, Democrats good, yada, yada, just know that there is no difference between them. They are all self interested, new world order, big spending, big taxing, big corporation sellouts. Our interests- those of the average person with a job, are the last thing they care about.

If you’re really poor (or just at like it) our government (with OUR tax money) will take care of you. If you’re rich, you’ve also got it made. If your anywhere in the middle, you’re screwed.

That “taxes must go up attitude” won’t fly anymore. That’s how we got here.

-X

BubbleTrack.blogspot.com

4/06/2006 08:26:00 AM  
Blogger Richie said...

Government needs to centralize and trim off some fat.

We're spending so that they can spend more. Why weren't these issues brought up long ago?

Why did NJ waste $250,000 to come up with a new state slogan when we have these financial difficulties?

Priorities need to be set.

4/06/2006 08:38:00 AM  
Blogger RentinginNJ said...

NJ needs to tighten its belt and go on a spending diet. Raising taxes will only push more people & businesses out of NJ. The State mistakenly thinks it has a captive audience that will pay any taxes it asks. Also, if Corzine is serious, he must renegotiate with the unions.

4/06/2006 08:44:00 AM  
Blogger grim said...

We're in a Catch-22.

Cutting government jobs and spending has a net negative economic impact.

The conundrum is how to cut government spending and jobs, but at the same time make up for that loss through captial investment and consumer spending.

The losses from cutting government spending and eliminating jobs *MUST* be offset at the same time.

The state really is in a difficult position. There is just no easy way out of this. We've been digging for years, it's only recently that we've realized it's going to be pretty hard to climb out of this hole.

grim

4/06/2006 08:56:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Grim,

The answer is tax the unions... in other words, make them pay for their healthcare benefits and raise the retirement age to workers who have been hired within the past 5 years.

4/06/2006 09:05:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Did you see the pork barrel report that came out yesterday? Don't even get me started on the costs of immigration. I can go in 100 directions on the issue of spending! You choose.


Good. Take the NJ budget, exclude court mandated spending, exclude spending on debt and go on to explain how to cut the NJ budget very specifically.


That “taxes must go up attitude” won’t fly anymore. That’s how we got here.


No, how we got here was -- cut taxes, but borrow and spend. Thats worse than tax and spend. Blame the voters for voting in people who promise free lunches.

4/06/2006 09:09:00 AM  
Anonymous UnRealtor said...

"Theres only so long you can go without paying for things. Taxes have to increase."


Or spending can decrease.

4/06/2006 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger Grim Ghost said...


in other words, make them pay for their healthcare benefits and raise the retirement age to workers who have been hired within the past 5 years.


The 2nd is good long term, it has no short term impact.

Remember we need to cut 4.5 billion in spending. You're not going to get that by cutting healthcare benefits. And while I agree that there is fat and crony spending in the budget, I don't think you are going to get 4.5 billion of the budget with that. Not without drastically reducing police, mass transit etc.

The income tax at the highest level is 8.97. That cannot be raised any more. That leaves sales taxes. No one likes that, but food, clothes, medicines etc are exempt.

We're paying here for the fiscal hangover of the Whitman and McGreevey years. Spending cuts and sales tax increases look like a pretty sensible way to go.

Finally, anyone who has put up with 60% increases in housing prices over the last 5 years, but wants to move out of state because the sales tax has gone up by 1% -- well, the word innumerate was invented for them.

4/06/2006 09:17:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Florzine

4/06/2006 09:17:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i agree with alot of the points made by grim, richie and anonymous 10:05.... there are so many overlapping agencies, incompetent
heads and continuous mismanagement. UMDNJ's Petillo resigns and gets a 600,000 severance..he basically ran a racket there as many of you have probably read about the newly released findings...Government employees are double dipping on multiple nj gov jobs to inflate there pensions... we need to start seeing indictments... we need to go beyond trimming the fat.

BR

4/06/2006 09:22:00 AM  
Blogger Bubble-X said...

Grim-

Where did you get that info that there is a net negative impact from job state cuts?

Have you thought about the pensions, etc, etc state workers get? They’re totally out of whack with anything anyone else gets in the private sector. That's a HUGE cost right there. We don’t even have to cut jobs- just cut the bogus benefits.

Or, how about how the cops in nice parts of Jersey call pull like $90k. For what? Domestic violence calls? Cops in The City I can see making that kind of money, but in Jersey? Why?

Any business knows that it highest cost is usually wages. That is the main reason job cuts come first in most companies when things get bad. Why should the state be any different?

Lastly, God only knows what pork is in the budget. But I'm sure there's a lot. There's probably also a ton of corruption. But unless people get really upset, it will never change. It's not a catch 22- it's up t us to get involved...

-X

4/06/2006 09:24:00 AM  
Anonymous UnRealtor said...

Some of the union deals are ridiculous.

Remember the MTA union strike last year in NY City? Did you hear what they were complaining about? They wanted mandatory raises each year, for one. Who the hell gets mandatory raises?

The unions have also killed General Motors.

Unions are obsolete. All this nonsense talk about how it's OK to outsource our best jobs overseas because it's a 'world ecomony now', but mention disbanding unions and the same people fall silent.

4/06/2006 09:25:00 AM  
Blogger Grim Ghost said...


Or spending can decrease.


I would suggest reading the Budget brief from the Governor's office. Its pretty illuminating.

There is a $4.8 billion deficit from a budget of around 30B. Over 2/3rds of the budget goes to local municipalties and education, property tax relief etc., and a great deal is court mandated. THen there is servicing of the debt. Over the past 4 years, 16B dollars were borrowed from other funds and through borrowing, all of which has to be paid back.

The state has been living beyond its means for years. You're not going to get back to fiscal sanity without at least some tax increases (and spending cuts).

4/06/2006 09:28:00 AM  
Blogger Bubble-X said...

I agree and disagree. With the outsourcing that's going on, I'm not sure how anyone is going to deal without unions.

On the other hand, it is true that the unions have killed compaines like GM. But that, in part, is becouse other countries can dump product here. They dont have unions.

On the other-other hand, the unions are greedy. The MTA example is a good one (though it's not Jersey). Want to talk about the teacher's unions? They get nice benes..

And.. I don't even want to hear about transit.. my train ticket is $270 per month!

BubbleTrack.blogspot.com

4/06/2006 09:32:00 AM  
Blogger Grim Ghost said...


Where did you get that info that there is a net negative impact from job state cuts?

When jobs are cut in the state level, there is a negative impact on jobs in the state. That much is obvious. For the past few years, we've been borrowing to pay for that. No more -- that mortgage has come due. Job cuts by themselves obviously have a negative impact.




Have you thought about the pensions, etc, etc state workers get? They’re totally out of whack with anything anyone else gets in the private sector. That's a HUGE cost right there. We don’t even have to cut jobs- just cut the bogus benefits.


You can't cut pensions already vested. Your suggestion is good, but it doesnt' do anything for current deficit. And we've been raiding the pension fund for years.


Or, how about how the cops in nice parts of Jersey call pull like $90k. For what? Domestic violence calls? Cops in The City I can see making that kind of money, but in Jersey? Why?


That typically comes from city or county budgets, not the state budget.

4/06/2006 09:33:00 AM  
Anonymous Rich In NorthNJ said...

The losses from cutting government spending and eliminating jobs *MUST* be offset at the same time.

I agree.
NJ needs to work on winning back corporations in the state. We are losing jobs in the technical field due to the states stance on corporate america which is pushing them to move out.
More corporations, more jobs.
More jobs, bigger tax base.

4/06/2006 09:35:00 AM  
Blogger Bubble-X said...

Grim Ghost-

The problem with what you are saying, is that it implies that taxes would go down at some point, which is unlikely.

We COULD solve the whole mess with massive spending cuts. You know it, and so do I. You are just saying you dont want to.

4/06/2006 09:35:00 AM  
Blogger Grim Ghost said...


On the other hand, it is true that the unions have killed compaines like GM. But that, in part, is becouse other countries can dump product here. They dont have unions.


Say what ? When it comes to cars, the major imports are from Germany, Japan and (smaller Korea). Germany has very strong unions, Japan and Korea have unions as well.

Even China has unions (albeit not independent ones), but the reason China can sell product here is that wages are much lower.

4/06/2006 09:36:00 AM  
Blogger Bubble-X said...

Errr,

Are you saying the Japan has not and does not dump product?

4/06/2006 09:38:00 AM  
Blogger Grim Ghost said...


We COULD solve the whole mess with massive spending cuts. You know it, and so do I. You are just saying you dont want to.


Once you take out interest on debt, court mandated obligations and the like, cutting 4.8 B is going to be very hard. Yes, its possible, but I think cutting back on mass transit, police, aid to municipalities would have a far more negative impact on the local economy than a tax increase.

4/06/2006 09:39:00 AM  
Blogger Grim Ghost said...


Are you saying the Japan has not and does not dump product?


I'm saying that Japan has unions. As to whether Japan dumps product here, I don't claim to know the answer, but I do know that a lot of Japanese cars are actually US made these days. If GM had achieved the manufacturing ability of Toyota, they would not have to be concerened about any "dumping"

4/06/2006 09:41:00 AM  
Blogger Bubble-X said...

We agree then. Hard but not impossible.

4/06/2006 09:41:00 AM  
Blogger Grim Ghost said...


We agree then. Hard but not impossible.


I would say fiscally imprudent. As imprudent as raising the highest tax rate would be.

4/06/2006 09:44:00 AM  
Blogger grim said...

Take this macroeconomic example.

All other things equal, lets say the state keeps taxes the same, yet cuts government spending and eliminates jobs. Any surplus will go towards paying back debt.

When the goverment spends money, where does it go? They might buy pencils from a pencil dealer in Newark, schoolbooks from a schoolbook dealer in Wayne, a backhoe from the backhoe dealer in Sussex.

What about those jobs? Those government workers buy groceries at the shop rite, go to the movies at the mall, buy cars from the automobile dealers on Rt. 22.

Government spending and government jobs result in dollars injected back into the local economy.

Cut that spending, and the pencil dealer sells less pencils. Thus he buys hamurger tonite instead of a steak.

The backhoe dealer sells one less backhoe, so he has to lay off a worker.

The grocery store sells fewer fresh vegetables and more frozen resulting in lower profits. They lay off a few.

The auto dealer lays off some workers because the state didn't buy 10 new state police cars this year.

You can't just cut spending without wondering how the economy is going to make up for the slack. The transition needs to be very slow for private investments and consumer spending to make up for the loss in spending.

What do I mean? Well maybe the government needs to cut taxes on capital investments. Now the folks that didn't take Econ 101 are going to scream bloody murder that the state is cutting taxes on rich corporations.

But maybe, Uncle John's farm up in Warren will realize that they can afford to buy a new tiller and backhoe with the tax savings. All of the sudden that backhoe dealer out in Sussex doesn't have to lay off those workers.

The economy does not exist in a vacuum. Everything is interconnected.

grim

4/06/2006 09:48:00 AM  
Anonymous SYM said...

I read something here about bringing the corporation back to NJ. This sure would add more jobs and give a boost to economy.
But why would a business want to come to NJ ? Cost of doing business in NJ is higher than in other states. Businesses will have to pay more salaries to employees in NJ than in other parts of the country.
NJ will have to provide them some incentives for bringing business in NJ, may be in terms of tax-breaks. And that would not add anything to govt budget!
Any thoughts finance experts ?

4/06/2006 10:01:00 AM  
Blogger chicagofinance said...

Everyone is talking around the main issue. The cost of living in NJ is too high. Real estate prices need to come down. Everyone, including the state itself, needs to stop living beyond their means and start paying down debt.

We are not at a point of equilibrium.

4/06/2006 10:19:00 AM  
Blogger chicagofinance said...

If you do not factor this thread's discussion into your personal financial planning, you are being reckless.

4/06/2006 10:22:00 AM  
Blogger skep-tic said...

interesting study of global housing affordability, measuring affordability in relation to median income.

www.demographia.com

9 out of the 10 least affordable areas in the world are in the U.S. NYC metro is #8, with median house prices about 8 times median income.

there are still many affordable areas left in the U.S. (affordable meaning median house prices no more than 3 times median income).

there's an interesting graph in the study which shows the explosion in house price appreciation in the bubble areas relative to the affordable areas during the past 5 yrs.

it's really worth looking at this graph because it demonstrates that national statistics are drastically misleading.

4/06/2006 10:25:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Florzine

10:17 AM

That stuff is poisonous, isn't it?

m reynolds

4/06/2006 10:30:00 AM  
Blogger chicagofinance said...

Just received an e-mail forward.......


It's that time of the year when one of America's
premier newspapers reveals the latest winners from its
annual contest to create new words. The premise is to
take any word from the dictionary, alter it by adding,
subtracting, or changing one letter, and then supply a
new definition. Following, are the best of this year's
new words:

5. Cashtration (n.): The act of buying a house, which
renders the subject financially impotent for an
indefinite period.

4/06/2006 10:36:00 AM  
Anonymous trroll said...

grim,

I agree. Cutting government jobs would have an impact on the states over all economy but on the other hand we can’t continue this charade. We are in debt and we have to face it. Something has to be done.

One thing, we can raise the taxes and continue raising them until no one is left in NJ to pay them (if it was not for my wife’s family leaving here I would move out a long time ago).

Two, we can start looking for savings. Some jobs cuts might be necessary – I’m not saying we need to cut the government jobs by half but we need to make sure that there are duplicate positions.

Moreover, we need accountability be instituted. Have been lately to, let say, Town Hall (almost any town hall), court or any other government institution. There are people sitting there and doing NOTHING.

Just recently I’ve been to Unemployment office (to avoid any misunderstanding – as if I was attacking the government blaming it for not having a job for me – I was there helping some one to fill out the forms – I’m lucky to have a pretty good job) that said, let’s get back to the topic – I have spent over 2 hours waiting for some bureaucrat to do their job – and there were only 16 people in front of us with 5 customer windows supposedly opened. The LADIES that supposed work there took their sweet time off talking to each other for over 25 min – I’m sure it was business related.

We need to get back to basics. Unions, nice government wages, benefits are all fine but only if the state is doing well and can afford them. Apparently, we can’t. So, we need to cut costs. As we was a regular business trying to get the house in order.

There need to be a sacrifices but their need to take place on both sides. I would not object to raised taxes if I saw that the government is serious about getting things under control by trimming some of the fat it has accumulated over all those years.

Is it going to be painful? Sure. But it’s necessary other wise we are only digging ourselves in ever deeper hole.

4/06/2006 10:52:00 AM  
Blogger Jiggles the Clown said...

The biggest problem facing NJ is that we have too many municipalities, each with their own schools, police, and fire. The redundancy is easy to comprehend. Why not run police and fire at the county level, like the rest of the country?

4/06/2006 10:56:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"cashtration"
how timely... simply brilliant
classic....
BR

4/06/2006 10:56:00 AM  
Anonymous trroll said...

Sorry this: "...need to make sure that there are duplicate positions."

Should read: "there are no duplicate positions".

4/06/2006 11:01:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jiggles ....

if you bring up shared services, regionalization, the fact that your town may have 3 firehouses for one square mile and the trucks are used more often for parades...you'll be lynched by council members. I highly respect firefighters and admire there courage.. nothing against them. its about the inefficiencies.
BR

4/06/2006 11:01:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As ChicagoFinanace said,

We need to factor this into our financial planning. With that being said, what are the probabilities of serious tax/spending reform in NJ?

In my lowly estimation, very little chance in the near term. So I plan on big taxes if I decided to stay in NJ.

4/06/2006 11:10:00 AM  
Blogger Metroplexual said...

I agree with jiggles. It's not that we have too much Gov't but too many. Redundancy of services and home rule is what has screwed up the state.

4/06/2006 12:40:00 PM  
Anonymous MoobyCow said...

I can't find the link now, but I remember reading that even if we cut 100% of discretionary spending we would still need to raise taxes to balance the budget going forward.

4/06/2006 12:58:00 PM  
Anonymous UnRealtor said...

"I can't find the link now, but I remember reading that even if we cut 100% of discretionary spending we would still need to raise taxes to balance the budget going forward."


That's to make up for years of over-spending.

Raising taxes is a short-term 'solution' to the long-term problem of over-spending.

4/06/2006 01:03:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Corzine is right though, it's simple arithmetic.
You can't spend more than you have, and that's what we've been doing. And there's no way we're going to be able to find spending cuts that add up to 4.5 billion (the idea that there is unneccesary spending that can be cut is so vague...it's basically the idea that Forrester ran on and lost on - so the voters clearly didn't buy it).

For those who can't handle it, my suggestion: Live Responsibly.

4/06/2006 01:19:00 PM  
Anonymous MoobyCow said...

UnRealtor,

You put solution in quotes like raising taxes is a gimick.

If the obligations (stuff that can not be cut) are more than our income, not raising taxes just makes the problem bigger no matter how much pork is cut from the budget.

You can argue for more cuts and a smaller tax increase, but you cannot argue for no tax increase. It simply put moves the problem forward again as the debt grows even more.

4/06/2006 01:27:00 PM  
Blogger bubble disciple said...

My friends, this is what happens when the largest employer is the government. If you cut spending drastically, then you create lots of unemployment.

Yes - there is corruption. But, I suspect that we would still be in trouble even if we eliminated all of it because of the sheer size of government (schools, police, fire, courts, agencies, etc).

Basically, when you finance most of your budget with debt (e.g. those AAA rated bonds), eventually you have to pay sooner or later.

and later is now...

PS - did anyone hear the Ron Paul speech on CSPAN yesterday.

4/06/2006 01:37:00 PM  
Anonymous Unrealtor said...

"You put solution in quotes like raising taxes is a gimick."


Because if spending was controlled, long term, a tax increase would not be needed.

The solution (no quotes) is to reduce spending, and keep it down.

4/06/2006 02:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Government spending and government jobs result in dollars injected back into the local economy."

Almost all credible macroeconomic textbooks demarcate taxes as "Dead Weight Loss", or pure destroyed value in the economy.

More to the point, the single major flaw in our system of government is the power to tax and the power to spend are in the same hands. If this was seperated at all levels of government, almost all of our governmental fiscal problems would go away.

4/06/2006 05:23:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Good. Take the NJ budget, exclude court mandated spending, exclude spending on debt and"

Court mandated spending (read: unelected far left activist judges) is the problem. This isn't democracy anymore!!


Re. German automakers: Yes, they have unions (which has caused companies to outsource manufacturing to East Europe) but the companies in Germany does not pay pensions (german taxpayers do). GM can't compete in real world if it pays high pensions for people who are not working.

4/06/2006 07:18:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let me get this straight. Some NJ Democrats are upset because Corzine raised taxes? Don't they know that raising taxes is what Democrats do best? Who did they think they were electing, for God's sake--a Republican!

4/06/2006 07:33:00 PM  
Blogger grim said...

Almost all credible macroeconomic textbooks demarcate taxes as "Dead Weight Loss", or pure destroyed value in the economy.

Was that in response to my example?

grim

4/06/2006 09:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Trish said...

At least Corzine is cutting heads. He's the first governor to do this in a while. There are far too many unnecessary state positions filled by cronies.

It's time to lop off more heads. Then change (gradually phase out) the pension plan to a 403(b) plan. This is the public version of the private sector 401(k) plan. It's ridiculous that a New Jersey employee with 20 years service collects almost his full salary for the rest of his life. I feel like I'm living in Sweden.

Also, speaking of taxing, let's charge $20.00 for every container that comes through Port Newark and Elizabeth and trundles through the state to Wal-Marts in the mid-west. Gee, thanks for destroying New Jersey's roads and infrastructure.

Then let's change the state constitution so that we can ease property taxes by ending the seven layers of state, county and municipal governments that all try to provide the same services and fail so spectacularly.

Let's create an audit department whose sole purpose is to help whistleblowers identify waste of the state's resources to politically connected cronies. Then pay the whistleblowers 20% of what the state saves. Gee, that would be fun. You have no idea of the horrendous conditions some state workers labor under in these decrepit buildings that the State of New Jersey overpays thousands of dollars in rent to unscrupulous landlords.

By the way I am a Democrat (but a Hudson County one, so I know corruption when I see it!)

Forty-Seven states have a surplus in funds. New Jersey, Louisiana and Mississippi do not. Hurricane Katrina hit the last two. What is our excuse?

4/06/2006 09:35:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is no state government employee who works 20 years and gets almost 100% of their pay. Not even close. You earn about 1.8% of your salary for each year worked. Retire before 55 and take a 5% pay cut per year. Also, we contribute 5% of our pay per year to our pension.

The small people in government service dont get rich working here, most of us want to help people It's not our fault that the pension fund was raided...

4/07/2006 07:30:00 AM  
Anonymous trroll said...

anon 8:30 AM,

“…most of us want to help people…”

Great, if most of you work hard and want to help people, why is that a word “bureaucrat” is the synonym for laziness, slowness, incompetence and corruption? Look, do not get me wrong – I’m not saying you are. But you must agree that there is a growing culture within government allowing people to see on their collective a**es not doing much. What and/or who is stopping the majority of you that want to help people from working faster and being more efficient. How is it that the “minority” is actually dictating the policies?

I might sound bitter but there is a reason for that. Couple weeks ago I had the “pleasure” of doing business with the “majority” of hard working individuals. Guess what? Out of 5 people “working” (and I’m using this term very loosely) that day 4 of them decided to have 25 minute chat – I’m sure they were discussing new ways of improving services and customer satisfaction.

My apologies for being sarcastic – but even though it happened two weeks ago it still makes me angry just thinking about it. If I was doing my job that way I would be fired within a week. But yet, they still are working there – of that I’m sure.

4/07/2006 08:36:00 AM  
Anonymous trroll said...

...to see on their collective a**es not doing much.

should be: to seat on their collective....

sorry.

4/07/2006 08:37:00 AM  
Blogger Shailesh Gala said...

I think we all Young professionals who are unable to buy decent house in NJ, should make a petition and send it to NJ governer's office.

I know many will say what Gov can do as this is free market. Well, Governer can do lot by making more planned land available for housing, changing policies etc... If we don't tell our issues, no one else will. Also, folks who are already house owners 70% are not really interested in prices to come down, they are not going to complain. In fact, they feel the pinch of Property Tax, which becomes big issue. For us, we are not able to buy simple house, Property Tax will come after that.

We should create a draft petition and have as many messages go to Gov's office as possible. Also now it is so easy to send message, I wonder why we should not do it.

http://www.nj.gov/governor/govmail.html

4/07/2006 09:28:00 AM  
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