Friday, August 18, 2006

Shifting Taxes to Businesses

From the APP:

Shifting tax burden to businesses would harm state

When I first heard there was going to be a special legislative session to lower property taxes for residents, I was excited. A summer session focused on property taxes could begin to solve another major crisis facing New Jersey — making the state economically competitive once again.

That's because New Jersey's skyrocketing taxes, which include property taxes, are a big reason companies and employees have been leaving or staying away from the Garden State. A recent study by the Washington-based Tax Foundation revealed that New Jersey has the second-worst business tax climate in the nation. CEOs from around the nation also rated New Jersey as the fifth-worst place to do business.

As details emerged about the property tax session, I assumed our legislators were interested in enacting true reform by focusing on ways to correct all the systemic problems that have been dragging New Jersey down. Issues such as correcting the state's generous, outdated pension system; consolidating and encouraging shared services within the 1,300 layers of government with taxing authority; and slashing out-of-control state spending were all on the table — a monumental feat.

My excitement, however, turned to horror when I read that one of the options being considered is to simply shift the tax burden from residents to our already overtaxed and hurting companies. That is not true reform — it is merely lowering one group's taxes and raising another's.

If this disastrous scenario becomes reality, it could be the final nail in the state's economic coffin. According to Rutgers University economists, New Jersey is already losing tens of thousands of high-paying jobs due to the state's high operating costs and they are not being replaced by similar attractive positions. The new jobs being created are lower paying service-sector ones — jobs that do not require college degrees or will tempt our children and the best and brightest to stay here and settle down. They will leave for places where there is greater economic opportunity and where growing companies have made long-term investments.


Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is so sad one could cry.

This state which once was so
great and just sunk to such lows
its like a horror movie.

Or a dream.

We are losing the best and the
brightest to other states because
of the low life pols who just
continue to milk the taxpayer.

NJ is sinking to third world status.

Look around.

And housing , well Grim and
others have posted the numbers
and the trend is you friend.

Whats the trend in NJ?

8/18/2006 06:11:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


It's not the income. It's the habits.

1) I lived at home for most of my 20s. Packed $ away, hardcore. I got off from the seeing my increasing balance.

2) I've never bot a new car. I always drove cars that cost ~ $2000. The last used car I bot was $12k from a dealership, but that was only after I was making $200k+, and had $500k in the bank

3) Expensive cars and watches DO impress chicks, b/c it exudes confidence and power. confidence and power. confidence and power.

But, be smart, buy it used. YOu can buy a used BMW for the same price as a new Civic.

Buy a used Rolex, etc.

Me? I never buy expensive sunglasses or watches, b/c they ALWAYS get lost. And cars only scratch and dent. Who wants the stress? I'm driving my Accord 'till the bitter death. I hope to reach 200k.

4) CLOTHES: You're better off wearing cheap clothes that fit right, then ill-fitting brand names. And you're better off having 2 good suits vs. 10 shit ones. Dressing well does NOT have to break the bank.

* I rarely eat out. Waste of time and money.

* Don't vacation unless you can afford it. Too many people classify vaca travel as a NECESSESITY vs. a LUXURY.

* Buy used. I've bot used golf clubs, guitars, sofas, cars, etc.

* Don't shop. I keep it minimal. I hate shopping. I hate clutter and chotchkies.

* Don't make stupid investments like plowing it all into dotcoms.

* Learn all the tax games. I save THOUSANDS a year with all my tax strategies.

It's not about spending.

Many forget that the "best years of their lives" coincide with when they were the poorest....high school, college, grad. school...

8/18/2006 06:12:00 AM  
Blogger grim said...

anon @ 7:12,

Many here are in the same boat as you. You are preaching to the choir, so to speak.

It's not a matter of being able to afford a house for many, rather they do not wish to
"throw away" the fruits of their labor, sweat, tears, and self-denial on something so overpriced and risky.


8/18/2006 06:27:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here we go again, robbing Peter to pay Paul. They just don't get it, Peter is tapped out and is playing, Born to Run, as they speed out of the state. I can be off a little, a year or two, but in 1998 our the total state spending was $18 billion, we are now at $36 billion. The state does not have a revenue problem, it is the out of control spending. Cut the damn spending and stop looking for ways to raise revenue!!!!!!

BC Bob

8/18/2006 07:19:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Came across an old letter
written to taxpayers by
former Gov. Tom Kean.

He said:

Our economy is flurishing. (not today)

We have more jobs. (jobs are leaving the state.)

More business and higher income levels than ever. (not anymore in NJ)

And , we are in far better economic
shape than most other states..(not anymore)

The letter is from 1983.

Gives you a feel for the long
way down the State has come to.

8/18/2006 07:34:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

More high paying jobs just go pooooofffffff.

Nowhere but down for housing in NJ over the next decade.

8/18/2006 07:38:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Who is saying the fundamentals of our economy are sound?

"Consider the steady ratcheting up of the Federal funds rate -- from 1% to 5.25% over the last several years. Has this reined in debt expansion and credit availability? Non-financial debt in the U.S. expanded at a rate of 6% in 2001, grew by 10% in 2005, and has been swelling at an even faster rate this year. At this pace, debt is growing an astounding 50% faster than GDP.

Meanwhile, outstanding credit derivative contracts increased from about $4 trillion at the end of 2003 to more than $17 trillion at the end of 2005; and the large volume of financial market activity so far this year suggests that outstanding derivative contracts are even higher now. The recent surge of these instruments is not just about reducing risk; it is fueling speculation."

A parabolic debt expansion keeps this monster alive.
Greenspin contributed tremendously to this IOU society. It's time to shut down show & tell society.


Wakeup. Gotta make the doooooughnuts.



8/18/2006 07:44:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


To many "FOOLs" playing house these days. You are not entitled to a house.

Friggen earn it!

Now the rats are jumping ship as the big squeeze is on. Sorry rats you are going down with the ship.

Do NOT bail out these rats. Let'em sink.
SS Show & Tell sinking



8/18/2006 07:51:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


The Long Island Business News has this update from New York. “On May 10, a Long Beach beachside colonial went on the market for a hair under $800,000. Two months later, the asking price dropped to $749,999. Last week, agent Renee Weinberg chopped another 55 grand off the four-bedroom home.”

“‘A year ago, I would have gotten 749 (thousand), no problem,’ said the sales associate, who got an offer for $525,000. ‘I said, ‘Forget it, tell them to get real,’ Weinberg said.”

“But this is residential’s new reality. After five years in the passenger’s seat, buyers have taken control of the market. Inventory is skyrocketing and shoppers are taking their sweet time as sellers drop prices, and as Weinberg can attest, buyers now scoff at asking prices.”

Many Grubbers going to be "SHOCKED" at what price they finally accept as it GRINDs lower.

8/18/2006 07:59:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...




This is all Business NOOOOTT"ING ELSE.


8/18/2006 08:02:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...



8/18/2006 08:04:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“‘A year ago, I would have gotten 749 (thousand), no problem,’ said the sales associate, who got an offer for $525,000. ‘I said, ‘Forget it, tell them to get real,’ Weinberg said.”

Maybe this agent should get real. Guess what Renee???? A house is only worth what a truly qualified buyer is willing to spend. Everything else is hogwash!!!!!!!!!
I think the buyer should tell her to get real with the asking price.

BC Bob

8/18/2006 08:11:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A Buyer that has 20% to put down with solid are a rare commodity these days. Make sure you MAXIMIZE your clout.

Do NOT give an inch and do not listen to a Realtor. Only a good deep housing recession will teach these starving realtors a lesson.



8/18/2006 08:13:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OK, everyone but the trolls who read this blog understands that what comes out of David Lereah's and (NAR president) Thomas Stevens' mouth is self-serving, but they can't seem to come to the same conclusion about the head of the state's highest business association?

Of course Bracken is all lathered up about potential business taxes, it's his ox that might be gored.

As I've said before, if property taxes go down, some other tax is going up. For all the ink (or electrons) spent decrying the massive tax burden in NJ, local/state taxes in total just aren't that far out of line with the national average (source:

I would love to see my property taxes decline, and I'm not nearly thick enough to believe there isn't massive waste and abuse in government services, but I'm also not thick enough to believe they will, or can, find enough things to cut/consolidate to meaningfully decrease the overall tax burden.

Bracken is right about the need to remove taxing authority from at least 1,200 of the 1,300 taxing entities in the state, but that's help going forward much more than fixing where we are.


8/18/2006 08:21:00 AM  
Blogger RichInNorthNJ said...

Let me break up Bobapalooza with this bit of information:

1,800 sites cut from DEP list with no notice

"Engineers say the old Kingsland Landfill in Lyndhurst harbors a stew of industrial and household waste, a toxic goop that accumulated during a half-century of unregulated dumping.

But the Meadowlands dump -- and nearly 300 other of the most polluted properties in Bergen and Passaic counties -- were quietly removed from New Jersey's official contaminated site list last year.

Statewide, more than 1,800 sites vanished from the watch list in 2005 without any public notice from the keeper of the list, the Department of Environmental Protection...."

8/18/2006 08:22:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anyone think that a few bagholding buyers (Bought within last 18 month) are getting a little angry with their realtor yet?

If not they will be pointi9ng the finger.

Politicians most disliked by public maybe it will be realtors in next few years.

8/18/2006 08:22:00 AM  
Blogger Richard said...

31,693 properties on the GSMLS. imagine how many more have been pulled or delayed waiting for the spring season when everyone will get the price they want! it's going to be an ugly 6 months for those that have to sell due to carrying 2 mortgages.

8/18/2006 08:22:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can we limit Bob to his posts per topic? I have been following the blog for a while and I now just skip over his nonsense.

8/18/2006 08:30:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


I'm not sure how NJ's business taxes compare to those of other states, but I highly doubt that they are what are driving industry from the state.

Much more likely factors are wages and the cost of buying/leasing land. Also, considering that no sizable business today locates/relocates anywhere without massive incentives (property tax abatements etc.) it's ridiculous to believe taxes play a significant role in that kind of corporate decision making.

NJ has the top three qualities a business used to look for -- location, location, location -- but wages, land costs, and infrastructure improvements elsewhere certainly are factors that work against the state now.


8/18/2006 08:33:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“‘A year ago, I would have gotten 749 (thousand), no problem,’ said the sales associate, who got an offer for $525,000. ‘I said, ‘Forget it, tell them to get real,’ Weinberg said.”

"Forget it"?... i don't think so... try: forget about selling the house.

8/18/2006 08:35:00 AM  
Blogger RentinginNJ said...

I can see the ads on TV now sponsored by the police and teachers unions:

(cut to as scene of old white men smoking cigars in a board room and laughing sinisterly).

Smarmy Voice: “Trenton politicians think protecting billions in giveaways for corporate fat cats is more important than your child’s education. Tell your legislator that its time to end the free ride and make corporations pay their fare share.”

8/18/2006 08:36:00 AM  
Blogger RichInNorthNJ said...

Sorry, I meant to put that last post over with the Xanadu post.



From the link you provided it looks as if we rank 17th and 3rd overall.
But I don't have the time to look through the entire web site. THe "job" and all.

New Jersey’s State and Local Tax Burden, 1970-2006

8/18/2006 08:39:00 AM  
Blogger grim said...

I really shouldn't comment on this since it applies to the company I work for.

We relocated one of our largest facilities out of New Jersey this year.

At one point a few years back we had over 700 employees working in this particular facilitity.

Sorry, but it is just too expensive to operate in NJ.

Location, location, location is right.

In our case it was to a location that gave us a package that we couldn't turn down. Not only did they provide a building with a dirt-cheap lease, but a tax package that nobody would have turned down.


8/18/2006 08:42:00 AM  
Blogger grim said...

Wage arbitrage is still very much possible within the U.S.

You don't need to offshore to find lower-cost high-quality labor.


8/18/2006 08:48:00 AM  
Blogger RentinginNJ said...

As I said before, real property tax reform won’t happen. The special interests will defend their turf zealously. They are well financed and vote in large numbers. They will organize grassroots campaigns using local teachers and cops to swing public opinion in their favor using fear and emotion. They will argue, “how could we even think of cutting police in these times of terrorism”? Or, “they want to cut funding to our little children…they don’t care about the children”. They will shift the focus to corruption in Trenton and getting others (i.e. corporations) to “pay their fair share” (i.e. shift the tax burden). They will be successful.

Some very modest cuts will be made along with shifting the tax burden to others. Any cuts will likely go to funding property tax relief for seniors and the poor.

8/18/2006 08:53:00 AM  
Blogger BergenBuyer said...

This state needs an enema.

Mooooon Riverrrr

8/18/2006 09:02:00 AM  
Blogger RichInNorthNJ said...

Gotta love the freedom of conference calls that you really don't need to attend...


Also from the site, State Business Tax Climate Index Rankings by State. We unfortunately rank number 49 overall.

State Business Tax Climate Index Rankings by State, 2006

8/18/2006 09:14:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Remember the song "Video killed the radio star.."

Well, Internet killed the Location, Location, Location song.

Sorry, but same as Grim's Co., we sent hundreds out years ago. NJ is like a forgotten outpost on some desolate, cold planet. It's a re-fueling stop on the highway to whereever the action is.

There is absolutely no reason to have your design, manufacturing, packaging or even logistics here.

Unless we workers here and residents figure out an alternate revenue stream, or find a way to win large corporations back, NJ's population will continue to flow away. Have you ever seen a ghost town? I have. I grew up in a coal mining town. I've seen every bungled waste of tax and aid dollars, every political patronage move, and so on.

The sheep let it happen.


8/18/2006 09:14:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pat, couldnt agree more. ditto for my company (planning now). NY has saved us... and lately even more so (post sept 11 security issues/etc rebirth of jersey city and surrounding). internet oversimplifies, but our 'host' (ny)can't support us forever.


8/18/2006 09:18:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Your reference to a coal mining town/ghost town reminded me of one of my favorite songs from the Boss;


I was eight years old and running with a dime in my hand
Into the bus stop to pick up a paper for my old man
I'd sit on his lap in that big old Buick and steer as we drove through town
He'd tousle my hair and say son take a good look around this is your hometown
This is your hometown
This is your hometown
This is your hometown

In `65 tension was running high at my high school
There was a lot of fights between the black and white
There was nothing you could do
Two cars at a light on a Saturday night in the back seat there was a gun
Words were passed in a shotgun blast
Troubled times had come to my hometown
My hometown
My hometown
My hometown

Now Main Street's whitewashed windows and vacant stores
Seems like there ain't nobody wants to come down here no more
They're closing down the textile mill across the railroad tracks
Foreman says these jobs are going boys and they ain't coming back to your hometown
Your hometown
Your hometown
Your hometown

Last night me and Kate we laid in bed
talking about getting out
Packing up our bags maybe heading south
I'm thirty-five we got a boy of our own now
Last night I sat him up behind the wheel and said son take a good look around
This is your hometown

8/18/2006 09:25:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So which states are the high paying jobs moving to?

8/18/2006 09:39:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When I was 18, I packed up my old maroon 1974 Opal Manta with two pair of Lee jeans, a poster of Stevie Winwood and $35 dollars. I mean it, I had the the Boss's River cassette playing all the way to Penn State. I never looked back at those culm banks.

I do worry about NJ. NJ's been good to me. I wish there was something I could do here.


8/18/2006 09:43:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

maybe NJ is just becoming a 'netherlands'...which isnt all bad...
-2nd highest taxes...that's saying something in europe.
-densest population per sq.kilometer(NJ is the densest in US
-coastal front sinking but surviving
-always complaining about imigration.
...still the richest per capita country in europe (biggest donors to EU as well per head)
...still the largest (tallest) people in europe... well fed i suppose, maybe eating usa genetically modified beef products.
...GDP is growing at only 1/10 of spain's.
...still happy. still rich. still smokin' just about anythinglegally.
curious. always had it...always will.


8/18/2006 09:51:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


You are evoking way too many memories. Off to school, I packed my VW bug with all my brother's hand downs, that's my shopping experience as a youth. My mother would tell me to go to my older brother's closet.

Yeah, I listened to Born to Run on the way to Boston College. I contemplated on how I loved this state and all it had to offer. At that time I truly felt it was the Promised Land. I agree, it is truly sad,more like my city of ruins.

BC Bob

8/18/2006 10:06:00 AM  
Anonymous UnRealtor said...

"Anyone think that a few bagholding buyers (Bought within last 18 month) are getting a little angry with their realtor yet?"

This realtor says she had a party with her "clients" this week:

Friday, August 11, 2006

My "Client Mix & Mingle" Party

Since so much of my business is relocation, I decided to host a "Client Mix & Mingle Party" for everyone who has recently moved to the area. Just ask anyone... I have the NICEST clients, so it was really great to be able to introduce everyone to each other. We had a great turnout ( about 40 people) Wednesday night at Fiorinos in Summit ( YUMMY!), and I really think everyone made some new friends. Many exchanged phone numbers.... totally cool!

A special acknowledgement to The Harmons who had just moved to Maplewood from Boston the day before, The Gemmels who also moved the day before from Michigan to Short Hills, and Emily Bulbulia, who had her baby only one week before, so I'm thrilled that they all made it to the party.

Should have been a pool party, because they're all underwater.

8/18/2006 10:07:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well....Sue should be thanking their corporate relo departments for paying her bills.

Relo money is going to get tight, though, as it's one of the first things to get cut in I STRONGLY advise Sue to put away some of the money she made off of the Harmons, Gemmels, and Bulbulias.

Nobody is going to want to pay Sue, eat pasta with her, or even smile at her once their companies stop footing the bill.


8/18/2006 10:15:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anyone believe this one?

I'll bet it sold for $250k 3 years ago if not less.

8/18/2006 10:19:00 AM  
Blogger Richard said...

pre-foreclosure? looking for the keyword hits huh? what an ugly eye sore. i'm sure that $635k comparable property isn't so comparable. you'll be seeing more of this desperation as people holding a double mortgage get desperate. what are they going to do when they can't get the price they want and can't rent it for nearly what it'll cost to cover monthly expenses?

8/18/2006 10:28:00 AM  
Blogger RentinginNJ said...

maybe NJ is just becoming a 'netherlands'...which isnt all bad...

Probably more like a new “rust belt”. In the Netherlands you pretty much have a captive audience and the ability to pass protectionist laws. In NJ, you can just drive a few miles to PA and the US Constitution prohibits state from passing protectionist laws (Commerce Clause).

If I were more clever, I would be able to think of an analogy to “rust belt” that could apply to NJ.

8/18/2006 10:30:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Consumer sentiment falls steeply

U.S. consumer sentiment dropped more than expected in early August, registering its lowest reading since the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, a report showed on Friday, as inflation expectations rose.

The University of Michigan's preliminary reading of consumer sentiment in August was 78.7, down from July's final reading of 84.7, said sources who saw the subscription-only report. The median forecast of Wall Street economists polled by Reuters was 83.6.

U.S. stocks fell, while government debt prices rose after the data emerged. The dollar fell against the euro and the yen.

"It's a very stagflationary kind of result," said Peter Kretzmer, senior economist at Banc of America Securities LLC in New York...

"Inflation expectations in the Michigan survey jump a full percentage point.... This is potentially alarming for Fed policy," said Brian Dolan, director of research at in New Jersey."

Lotsa happy campers out there to buy houses, huh? I hope Mr. Bush and the three wise men aren't just sitting around smokin' Cubans today while Elaine chokes.


8/18/2006 11:03:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

exactly... i was thinking rustbelt too. i was thinking Detroit suburbrs. Pittsburgh Burbs, or bethlehem/allentown

8/18/2006 11:10:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"U.S. consumer sentiment dropped more than expected in early August, registering its lowest reading since the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina"


Cuz a phoney economy built on parabiolic debt accumulation is not sound. You can't grow debt 50% faster than gdp forever and not have a negative reaction or slow period to consolidate the excesses. Greenspin never allowed the economy to have a normal cleansing process. This guy was the worst!



8/18/2006 11:21:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Anyone think that a few bagholding buyers (Bought within last 18 month) are getting a little angry with their realtor yet?"

Not really, there is no reason to, when someone decide to buy a house, it should their own decision, not their realtors, and in my case. I bought it from Foxton a little bit more than a year ago, I did most of the work, my realtor didn't do a darn thing.

Do I regret for buying last year now that the market slowed? Not really, because I didn't buy the house to flip, I bought it to start a family and I plan to stay here for quite a while. The good thing is, I got it when mortgage rate was near its lowest, first time buyer, and because of the zone that I was going in(near woodbridge), I managed to get a special rate from the bank. 30 year fix at around 5%, Tax rebate that we got for owning the house and property tax pretty much cancel out, and the mortgage I am paying is just 300 dollar more than what I was paying when I was renting in New York. we have a lot more room, a nice yard. We can finally get the furnitures that we want, paint the walls and go with the designs that we want. I can finally set up my home threater, invite my friends and family over for BBQ, and my new wife can finally have a flower bed to plan her roses.

As a habbit that I picked up when I was house hunting, I still check real state boards and blogs once in a while when I get bored, I have read many of the articles about bubble, some of the articles bothered me abit at the beginning, but they don't concern me any more, it is just a way of life. There are so many darn things you can worry about if you chose to burden yourself with them: real state bubble,terrorist bombing, New Jersey is running out of money, wars in the middle east, bird flu, mad cow decase...., I have came to realize one thing, if you stop worrying about things that you can't do anything about and just focus on your own life, you will live a much happier life.

8/18/2006 11:22:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Crock of S!$T.

Are u related to Lereah?

What did you buy grandma's house?

8/18/2006 11:25:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ask all those depserate bagholders who can't cover their mtg payment?

Don't worry you will just be foreclosed on in 6 months. And there are alot of these fools around.

8/18/2006 11:27:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Spin this one.

“I believe area home sellers are just going to have to get used to these new market conditions because it’s not likely to change for a long time. Speaking very generally, buyer’s and seller’s markets in our area seem to last about five to eight years. It’s a cycle that has repeated since the early 1980s. If it holds true, it is possible we won’t see another seller’s market until at least 2011.”

How about 2020!

8/18/2006 11:31:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon :8/18/2006 12:25:42 PM

Did you buy the House? No.. So why are you being so negative?.. This is why this board has become a lynch mob.. Back in October when I first started reading this board it was about Data and everyone respected everyones own opinion.. Its just gotten plain mean on here
and I am not the previous poster you are commenting on

8/18/2006 11:37:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon :8/18/2006 12:25:42 PM

Did you buy the House? No.. So why are you being so negative?.. This is why this board has become a lynch mob.. Back in October when I first started reading this board it was about Data and everyone respected everyones own opinion.. Its just gotten plain mean on here
and I am not the previous poster you are commenting on"
I think many people like myself are tired of a group of people making a fortune off unsuspecting people.

Damn right people should be worried. 42% of first time buyers last year put down 0% or less last year. You think this is good????

Looking forward to the deep recession in the real estate industry. Too much trash needs to be dumped and cleaned out before recovery.

8/18/2006 11:41:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

72% of first time buyers put down less than 9% last year but Pinnochio calls this a "NORMAL" market.

It's a STUPID IRRATIONAL MARKET swarming with con-men.

8/18/2006 11:44:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 8/18/2006 12:41:34 PM

Ok.. What does that have to do with a persons own personal experience. He bought the house... I didn't read in his/her statement that they were trying to sell it.. he/she said he/she was planning to stay there for a while.. What does that have to do with trying to make a fortune off of people?.. I don't think he/she was saying that. And No I don't think 42% of people putting down 0% percent is a good thing but do you have a right to put people down just because you wouldn't make the same decision.. You have no idea what other peopls situation is..

8/18/2006 11:47:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


The problem I have with your fattie-ganga "be happy" approach is that there IS something we can do AND SHOULD do.

" can't do anything about and just focus on your own life, you will live a much happier life."

You do realize that if everyone took your advice, well..I would want a quick, merciful death. No ganja would make it all go away.

My husband's company would stop trying to develop fast alteration vaccines for H5N1. Just let everybody die if it mutates as it spreads. Why should he go to work or worry..we can just sit on the beach with our deathly-ill heads up our butts.

NJ running out of money..who cares..if the beach just falls away, what does it matter..? Geez, then we can't sit there at all, sick or not!!!

Are you being sarcastic, or do you really want to be viewed by your children's children as a do-nothing? [Many comparisons in history of people who did nothing come to mind, but are WAY too political to point out here.]

I don't want that for me.

So, don't read this blog if discussions like this worry you so'll be much happier, mon.


8/18/2006 11:49:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would describe myself as a bubblehead, but I don't understand the anger directed toward 12:22:51.

"Things themselves don't hurt or hinder us. How we view these things is another matter. It is our attitudes and reactions that give us trouble."


8/18/2006 11:59:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


If you can't do a thing about it? worrying about is not going to help. However, if there is something that you can do something about, that is a different story.

I read alot more blogs, not just this one, I try to get a balanced view.

The Anonymous new home owner.

8/18/2006 12:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous new home owner:

Our base logic steps are different, so we cannot agree.

You assume there is a mind, place and time continuum where "you can't do anything about it."

I assume no such thing in any dimension.

So..the difference.


8/18/2006 12:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So don't suggest a person has to be smoking something because there is a difference of opinion..

Not the Anon home buyer.

8/18/2006 12:14:00 PM  
Blogger RichInNorthNJ said...

What I got out of Anon 12:22's post is that he is not worried about the Housing Bubble as he has no plans on selling the home and plans on raising his family there. He made a choice to purchase a home and is content with it.

Hopefully for him he won’t have to sell within the next 10 years and I sincerely wish him luck.

He also states his belief that it's not worth it for him to worry about something he can’t control and recommends this for others as it works for him.

So where’s the controversy? Also, where did he mention completely tuning out through use of drugs??

How about moving this to the forum
along with any political commentary? Please.

Or better yet, do some research and present some data, stories or information related to housing.
Oh yea, how about creating a login also?

8/18/2006 12:20:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have no problem/anger with anon,12:22:51 PM. It seems like he knew what what the market conditions were before he bought, he did his homework and is looking to settle and not flip. He is comfortable with his monthly mortgage payment.

I looked at the same info and decided I better rent. My wife loves her flower garden also. However, she does not want to forego the 20k interest she is receiving in order to prune her rose bushes. I loved my game room, I just didn't think it was worth a 150-200k haircut to keep it. A ton of people, not on this site, thought I was crazy for selling in 2005. Who's to say, I may be wrong. To each his/her own. He totally understood what he was getting into, no problem there.

BC Bob

8/18/2006 12:20:00 PM  
Blogger lindsey said...

To Richinnorthnj

That survey showing us as 17th was exactly what I was talking about. You can see that the state/local tax burden for 2006 is 10.8 percent. The nattional average is 10.6 percent. Reducing the state's tax burden by 20 basis points (in relative terms less than 2 percent) puts us squarely in the middle of the pack.

The total tax of course is much higher because the rank of NJ for federal tax collection is of course sky high. And as the Tax Foundation people note, we don't get much back for our federal dollars (about 55 cents on the dollar I think).

8/18/2006 12:31:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

richinnj, for this particular thread, titled "Shifting Taxes to Business," - anon 12;22 felt it was important to advise blog readers to stop worrying about things we are powerless to change and focus on our own lives to be happy.

That advice I couldn't let go unchallenged, and my response was completely on point, relative to the topic, and completely justified. Why do you think it should be moved from this thread, which is a tax/political topic?

Note also that I never said she/he (12:22) used drugs, but that the don't worry/be happy "approach" is something I disagree with.

Just some clarification, here.


8/18/2006 12:34:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I bet anonymous 12:22.51 is a realtor. The post reads just like a commercial for buying real estate now. It reminds me of those excedrin/tylenol whichever commercials where the person describes in gory details their headache and why they are going to take whatever painkiller to get rid of it. You fell for the bait and kept a bored realtor busy for little while.


8/18/2006 12:39:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


And I am not trying to be sarcastic, when I have kids, of course I will tell them that they should try to be all they can be, however, you have to realize that we however, as adults, have already defined roles in the society. We can carry on our roles the best we can, but however, when it comes to thing that we can do nothing about, it is better to just stop worrying about it.

Like terrorist bombing for example, for a while after 9/11, I was still living in NY back then, my parents were so worried. they asked me not to take the subway, and try not to go out on the weekends or major holidays. I pretty much had to tell them, if I happened to be there when a bombs goes off, there is nothing I can do about it, and since there is nothing I can do about it, I should not worry about it and let it interfere with my life.

You are right, we do have different logic. We don't have to agree with each other on this issue, but my posting did not mean to offend you in anyway.

I was on this blog for a while before I bought my house, after reading it for a while, I realized that many people here are older than me and have alot of captial, so when the market drops, they can probably just put down a huge down payment, and they get their saving that way. However in my case, since I am only putting down enough to not have to pay a PMI, the low rate I got back then was considered a saving for me.

The anonymous home owner

8/18/2006 12:39:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

An honest realtor....Applaud and do business with this type of realtor.

“‘The market has already corrected a solid 10 percent, and the market is poised to correct another 10 percent,’ said David Morris, broker and 29-year veteran of the Northern Nevada real estate market. ‘The market correction is very real and it is going to be very deep.’”

“He said the resale market is being pressured by the new homes market, where deep discounts and incentives have become commonplace. Morris estimates that the downturn will last about three years. ‘Prices are probably going to adjust across the board for the majority of houses a solid 20 percent,’ Morris said. ‘There will be a few that will adjust by the spring or summer of ‘07 by 30 percent, and a handful that will adjust worse than that.’”

8/18/2006 12:42:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The anonymous homeowner is simply
a realtor that hates competing with Foxtons

8/18/2006 12:45:00 PM  
Blogger RichInNorthNJ said...


Thanks, I see your point. I was looking at the ranking and would prefer is we were 25. But I didn't pay attention to the percentage.

Did you see the info about where we rank for business?



The recent home owner was refering to someones post about recent purchases, not about business taxes.
The reason I think it should be in the forum was simply because the discussion was turning philosophical.

8/18/2006 12:51:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That certainly is amusing, anyone who points out the benefit of owning a home is a realtor.
then again, it doesn't take much to be a realtor now a day.

But no, I am not a reatlor, I am an IT guy who is glad that he still got a job in this country and got too much time on his hands when he is between projects :)

8/18/2006 12:52:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Pat you may have not said that directly that homebuyer was smoking "fattie-ganga" But you certianly were implying someone thinking the way they do must be.

"So, don't read this blog if discussions like this worry you so'll be much happier, mon."

I am glad you feel justified in what you said I feel differently


8/18/2006 12:53:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

and by the way, I was only responding to this comment posted above:

"Anyone think that a few bagholding buyers (Bought within last 18 month) are getting a little angry with their realtor yet?"

Just responding to it base on my own experience.

The Anonymous home owner

8/18/2006 12:55:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

nuh-uh..there's go getting away from this quote, homeowner:

"New Jersey is running out of money, wars in the middle east, bird flu, mad cow decase...., I have came to realize one thing, if you stop worrying about things that you can't do anything about and just focus on your own life, you will live a much happier life."

Mon oh Mon


8/18/2006 01:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pat, must you respond negatively to every post that portrays something positive about real estate? If something doesn't jive with what you think, you minimize or attack it when that isn't always justified. Not everything fits the purpose of this blog, which, by its nature, is mostly negativity about RE.

"To each his/her own. He totally understood what he was getting into, no problem there."

BC Bob

Thank you BC Bob for your balanced and I think accurate reading of Anon 12:22:51 PM, and your thoughts on the topic. Perhaps Pat should take that advice you gave me, that we have two ears and one mouth.

Opinions are not a matter of who is right or wrong. You gave no data that proves your opinion is better, only "Our base logic steps are different, so we cannot agree." So agree to disagree then. If you want to express your opinion, you don't have to do it the way you did.

"Are you being sarcastic, or do you really want to be viewed by your children's children as a do-nothing?"

That's harsh. I'll end with one of my favorite sayings.

"The goal of argument is not victory but progress."

This is all of my opinion.


8/18/2006 01:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


I stand corrected, and you are absolutely right. I didn't have to express my opinion that way.

I'll try less opinion.


8/18/2006 02:11:00 PM  
Blogger jayb said...

“A sarcastic person has a superiority complex that can be cured only by the honesty of humility.”

Rev. Lawrence G. Lovasik

8/18/2006 02:17:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Let's put it this way, I myself don't have the ability, the power, or the financial means to fix the new jersey budget crisis, and I don't think I have the time, the energy or captial to get it fixed with in the next year, or two. So that is why I do not worry about it or plan to do anything about it.

The same goes for wars in the middle east, bird flu, mad cow decase.

Mean while, I have other things to worry about, thing that I can do something about, like trying to get my next promotion, making my wife happy, finding a good fund to put my saving in, etc...

If you think you have the energy or means to change of those things, then I think you should do something about them, however, just talking about them is not going to help.

8/18/2006 02:27:00 PM  
Anonymous dreamtheaterr said...

Damn right people should be worried. 42% of first time buyers last year put down 0% or less last year. You think this is good????

Umm, how can you put down less than 0%??

8/18/2006 02:46:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

there are 110% mortgages

8/18/2006 03:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

it's like choosing to get cash back after you've paid with your debit card.

8/18/2006 03:01:00 PM  
Blogger lindsey said...

To richinnnj

Hmmm... I thought I did respond on that. I must have screwed up the verification and not realized it.

I did look at the rankings and it's another case where I'd like to see the actual numbers so I have some idea about how far afield we might be.

I did notice that the top three states were traditional backwaters of Wyoming, South Dakota, and Alaska, but that Florida, Texas, and Delaware also were in the Top 10.

As I noted in my 9:33 post and grim basically confirmed at 9:42, lower wages and big incentives are the driving forces for large corporate moves, not really taxes.

If anything taxes play a larger role in a company leaving than a company coming. based on the rankings it looks like we're pretty much indistinguishable from our neighbors to the North (NY and Conn.) but Pa. and Delaware seem like very good alternative locales for someone looking to stay in the area but improve their tax situation.

8/18/2006 03:40:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

NJ recently offered Deutsche bank over $20MM to relocate 1200 people from NYC to Harborside.

This is payable over 10 yrs with funds received from state taxes.

This is a similar offer made to other firms.

I would assume that this is a win-win. Thoughts appreciated on how you think this would impact taxes.

8/18/2006 10:16:00 PM  
Anonymous Pragmatist said...

You know, there's healthy schädenfreude and unhealthy schädenfreude, and some of you are exhibiting the latter.

I too was a frustrated non-homeowner in the late 1980's, and had a lot of the same feeling some of you have now; that it wasn't fair, that I was somehow being "cheated" because instead of living in my toxic birthhome after college I chose to be an adult and move out on my own. I too felt glee when I saw prices start to fall -- until I saw a friend get caught up in it and lose everything she had because she lost her job right in the middle of the price crash, owed more to the bank than the house was worth, and had to sell her grandmother's china and glassware and pretty much everything else she owned in order to get out of it.

And that was BEFORE the easy credit of today.

If you want to talk about the materialistic values that have made people think they NEED a house with a huge foyer and a sweeping staircase for the ONE day their daughter will come down the stairs in a wedding gown, fine. If you want to talk about how people think that kids shouldn't even have to share a BATHROOM, fine. If you want to complain that all new construction around here is mansions, fine.

But don't people have free will? No mortgage broker or realtor held a gun to anyone's head and said "Buy now." Anyone with half a brain could see that not only was this kind of price appreciation unsustainable, but that loans with "gotchas" after 2-3 years were a bad idea.

There's no "conspiracy" against young homeowners. There's just a lot of stupid, materialistic people who think they can live beyond their means indefinitely.

Sort of like the people we have chosen to represent us.

8/19/2006 07:52:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Sort of like the people we have chosen to represent us."

You mean in Trenton, right?

8/19/2006 11:13:00 AM  
Blogger RentinginNJ said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/19/2006 04:32:00 PM  

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